Post #76
It'd be nice to see it out again Pete! 
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Team Running Engine again!Team Negative Camber!
My Budget track engine build thread!
Now appearing at a Trackday near you!!
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| Author | Subject: How do they get 280bhp out gti6 engine? |
 jeffers
Forum Admin Location: Leeds Registered: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 3,702 Status: Offline |
Team Negative Camber! My Budget track engine build thread! Now appearing at a Trackday near you!! |
 Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 21:26
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pete_rallye
Seasoned Pro  Location: Yorkshire Registered: 12 Dec 2002 Posts: 5,253 Status: Offline |
Post #77
jeffers wrote: It'd be nice to see it out again Pete! You're not wrong! ________________________________________ Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2 Lap of the 'ring |
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Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 21:32
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jeffers
Forum Admin Location: Leeds Registered: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 3,702 Status: Offline |
Post #78
pete_rallye wrote: jeffers wrote: It'd be nice to see it out again Pete! You're not wrong! Put me down for a few passenger laps if you make it!  ________________________________________ Team Running Engine again!Team Negative Camber! My Budget track engine build thread! Now appearing at a Trackday near you!! |
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Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 21:37
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blandy
Seasoned Pro  Location: Bucks Registered: 25 Feb 2007 Posts: 2,437 Status: Offline |
Post #79
What are the standard pistons and rods rated 2 bhp/rpm wise I.e having machined pocketed pistons what would be the perspective limit |
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Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 22:15
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pete_rallye
Seasoned Pro Location: Yorkshire Registered: 12 Dec 2002 Posts: 5,253 Status: Offline |
Post #80
No one knows is the honest answer. People will speculate all they like but I don't know anyone whos actually worked it out. I would imagine there is a formula for the rods involving tensile strength, piston speed, distance etc that would give you a good idea but not sure about pistons. As Allen has said, there are numerous examples in the rallying world of mi16's and s16's been revved to 9krpm on standard bottom ends. I know of one that was fine for years revving it knackers off. Guess it depends how much you want to risk. ________________________________________ Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2 Lap of the 'ring |
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Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 22:20
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic  Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,817 Status: Offline |
Post #81
200 ish.whether the rods will be good for further its difficult to say due to the fact they are a shrink fit without a bush, therefore wont accept an aftermarket piston without some machine work to install a suitable bush. not unheard of at all, but most choose to get cheap Chinese rods instead, whether that's a good idea I'm not sure of, however I do know that if you keep the revs reasonably close to standard limits then many std pug rods will be fine, I know Sandy has just used EW7 rods in a TU5 build that's around the 200 mark going to just over 8k (due to geometry of the engine, piston speed is actually no higher than the original EW engine) ________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 22:21
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miles
Seasoned Pro  Location: Ringwood Registered: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 3,433 Status: Offline |
Post #82
From seeing the amount of bend rods I have, To have them fail is going some, It's more likely the big end bolts will go first if std. Mines on a std crank to 8500 rpm and is fine, But it's all been balanced but over the winter a steel crank is coming, get some weight off and another trip to my balancers.But figures are just that, I could say mine was 300bhp and no one would know any better ________________________________________ 306 Rallye Sptint/Race Car, 205 CTI 1.9 8v to name a fewRoad, Track and Race/Rally car preparation to your personal requirements, Full Workshop & Diagnostic Facilities New and Second parts, from Plugs to Turbo's We now also carry out Routine Servicing www.pugracing.com & FB Page, https://www.facebook.com/PugRacing Ebay; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Pug-Racing-Shop 2012/2013/2014/2019 Class Winners at Gurston Down Speed Hillclimb & Joint overall, Class record too along the way, |
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Posted 29th Aug 2013 at 23:46
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stan_306gti6
Forum Admin Location: Kent Registered: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 21,768 Status: Offline |
Post #83
welshpug! wrote: 200 ish. whether the rods will be good for further its difficult to say due to the fact they are a shrink fit without a bush, therefore wont accept an aftermarket piston without some machine work to install a suitable bush. not unheard of at all, but most choose to get cheap Chinese rods instead, whether that's a good idea I'm not sure of, however I do know that if you keep the revs reasonably close to standard limits then many std pug rods will be fine, I know Sandy has just used EW7 rods in a TU5 build that's around the 200 mark going to just over 8k (due to geometry of the engine, piston speed is actually no higher than the original EW engine) Many people (including myself) have run 260bhp on standard rods without issue when low boost. Admittedly, the rev limit was only increased to 7450rpm mind.  ________________________________________ "Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"Peugeot 306 GTi-6 2000 (X), Moonstone  |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 08:09
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allanallen
Seasoned Pro  Location: Buxton Registered: 01 May 2007 Posts: 1,399 Status: Offline |
Post #84
stan_306gti6 wrote: welshpug! wrote: 200 ish. whether the rods will be good for further its difficult to say due to the fact they are a shrink fit without a bush, therefore wont accept an aftermarket piston without some machine work to install a suitable bush. not unheard of at all, but most choose to get cheap Chinese rods instead, whether that's a good idea I'm not sure of, however I do know that if you keep the revs reasonably close to standard limits then many std pug rods will be fine, I know Sandy has just used EW7 rods in a TU5 build that's around the 200 mark going to just over 8k (due to geometry of the engine, piston speed is actually no higher than the original EW engine) Many people (including myself) have run 260bhp on standard rods without issue when low boost. Admittedly, the rev limit was only increased to 7450rpm mind. Stan, back on topic........  ________________________________________ www.bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 08:18
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pete_rallye
Seasoned Pro Location: Yorkshire Registered: 12 Dec 2002 Posts: 5,253 Status: Offline |
Post #85
Its Stan who turns everything into an NA vs boost debate! I reckon he should be banned from talking about boost for a month. ________________________________________ Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2 Lap of the 'ring |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 08:24
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allanallen
Seasoned Pro Location: Buxton Registered: 01 May 2007 Posts: 1,399 Status: Offline |
Post #86
pete_rallye wrote: Its Stan who turns everything into an NA vs boost debate! I reckon he should be banned from talking about boost for a month. A month! One step at a time, perhaps a day to start off with  maybe he could use his admin powers to start a new 'super dooper moonstone hi boost' sub forum where he could voice his opinion to people that were actualy interested?? ________________________________________ www.bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 08:31
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clen666
Seasoned Pro  Location: Co. Durham Registered: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 2,401 Status: Offline |
Post #87
miles wrote: From seeing the amount of bend rods I have, To have them fail is going some, It's more likely the big end bolts will go first if std. Mines on a std crank to 8500 rpm and is fine, But it's all been balanced but over the winter a steel crank is coming, get some weight off and another trip to my balancers. But figures are just that, I could say mine was 300bhp and no one would know any better Miles, how much do you pay for balancing? ________________________________________ Team 'unintentional rat look' |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 09:08
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro  Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #88
stan_306gti6 wrote: welshpug! wrote: 200 ish. whether the rods will be good for further its difficult to say due to the fact they are a shrink fit without a bush, therefore wont accept an aftermarket piston without some machine work to install a suitable bush. not unheard of at all, but most choose to get cheap Chinese rods instead, whether that's a good idea I'm not sure of, however I do know that if you keep the revs reasonably close to standard limits then many std pug rods will be fine, I know Sandy has just used EW7 rods in a TU5 build that's around the 200 mark going to just over 8k (due to geometry of the engine, piston speed is actually no higher than the original EW engine) Many people (including myself) have run 260bhp on standard rods without issue when low boost. Admittedly, the rev limit was only increased to 7450rpm mind. My ecu has the words 7800 limit written on it so I doubt very much i'll be using that for when i go boost. ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 09:09
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stan_306gti6
Forum Admin Location: Kent Registered: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 21,768 Status: Offline |
Post #89
@ you lot!I was merely stating a fact. Someone asked what you could reliably take the standard rods to. Welshpug guessed around 200bhp safely, I merely stated a lot of people have managed 260bhp reliably, so perhaps 200 was a little under the mark. Nothing to do with boost or not, simply what power (however made) the rods could cope with...  ________________________________________ "Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"Peugeot 306 GTi-6 2000 (X), Moonstone |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 09:16
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miles
Seasoned Pro Location: Ringwood Registered: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 3,433 Status: Offline |
Post #90
I use http://vibrationfree.co.uk/, give them a call for pricing________________________________________ 306 Rallye Sptint/Race Car, 205 CTI 1.9 8v to name a fewRoad, Track and Race/Rally car preparation to your personal requirements, Full Workshop & Diagnostic Facilities New and Second parts, from Plugs to Turbo's We now also carry out Routine Servicing www.pugracing.com & FB Page, https://www.facebook.com/PugRacing Ebay; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Pug-Racing-Shop 2012/2013/2014/2019 Class Winners at Gurston Down Speed Hillclimb & Joint overall, Class record too along the way, |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 10:02
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,817 Status: Offline |
Post #91
I mention 200 as that's the most you'll get with the standard piston modified for cams, to go any further you need longer duration which means opening the valves sooner and faster.and the fact that you're under 11-1 compression which isn't ideal when you start increasing the duration. ________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 10:10
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jammapic
Senior User  Location: Manchester Registered: 11 Jun 2010 Posts: 778 Status: Offline |
Post #92
FYI, I am running a totally stock bottom end, albeit with ARP rod bolts. When my house move is completed I will be getting the pistons pocketed and intend to push stock rods and pistons to failure. I would like to think 200hp is a little on the low side welshpug! as I'm roundabout there anyway. But, lets see.... There's no point us speculating! JP ________________________________________ HDI Engine Tuning / Remapping Services - https://www.facebook.com/dervtech306 GTi-6 Track Car - 200+ hp all N/A! 306 DTurbo Track beasty - 209.9hp - RIP |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 10:11
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,817 Status: Offline |
Post #93
I reserve judgement on yours till it sees a known pair of rollers, or an engine dyno or you strip the "standard" cams out for longer duration items... ________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 10:57
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allanallen
Seasoned Pro Location: Buxton Registered: 01 May 2007 Posts: 1,399 Status: Offline |
Post #94
jammapic wrote: FYI, I am running a totally stock bottom end, albeit with ARP rod bolts. When my house move is completed I will be getting the pistons pocketed and intend to push stock rods and pistons to failure. I would like to think 200hp is a little on the low side welshpug! as I'm roundabout there anyway. But, lets see.... There's no point us speculating! JP How and why are you going to push them to failure? ________________________________________ www.bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 11:09
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rallyeash
Seasoned Pro  Location: Devizes Registered: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 4,424 Status: Offline |
Post #95
Building an engine to fail will cost more than building it once with decent pistons and rods in the first place. What a stupid thing to want to do or say! ________________________________________ 230 hp 2.1 16v XU 205 rallye on jenveys Project thread here309 3dr K20 Type R |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 11:15
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gilesy
Seasoned Pro  Location: Greenwich - in that London Registered: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5,133 Status: Offline |
Post #96
Well he is stupid, so what do you expect |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 16:56
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pebbles167
Seasoned Pro  Location: Melksham. Wiltshire. Registered: 08 Dec 2009 Posts: 2,516 Status: Offline |
Post #97
I think he meant he's going to push them to their absolute limit, not build the engine with the intention of it actually failing... Surely.No one with a full grasp of their sanity would want to do that. ________________________________________ 2005 Peugeot 206 GTI 1802008 BMW K1200R |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 17:47
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rallyeash
Seasoned Pro Location: Devizes Registered: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 4,424 Status: Offline |
Post #98
But you'll only no the limit when they fail so it's basically still building an engine with the wrong mindset!________________________________________ 230 hp 2.1 16v XU 205 rallye on jenveys Project thread here309 3dr K20 Type R |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 20:31
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phillipm
Seasoned Pro  Location: Rotherham Registered: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 20,607 Status: Offline |
Post #99
When they fail you're well past the limit, because there's fatigue to account for, without accurate fatigue cycling and checks the very best you could say is 'they're good for about half of what I blew them up at'Even then, it's not absolute, because more power at lower revs can be less stressful and vice versa, depending on setup. Even worse, the main problem with rods these days is not strength, it's stiffness, so you may be nowhere near the limit a just happen to spend most of your time near one of the natural frequencies of the rod combination, in which case it fails through that rather than power/rpms. I think the most anyone can say is they're good for 170+bhp for a damned long time (Not heard of many stock rod failures...). Which means they are probably capable of 340+bhp for a very short time. And anything else is a mix of the two. ________________________________________ - Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM meEmail me! Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces. |
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Posted 30th Aug 2013 at 20:39
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #100
There was a bloke in brazil with 450hp on standard internalsWith ethanol and lots of boost. What was his name again? had a zx dakar... ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 31st Aug 2013 at 00:11
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