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Author Subject: Wayne, don't look, shiny things.
phillipm

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Post #76
LOL

There's a high-pressure dust seal in the black alloy cap (keeps dirt/mud/swamp out well at the expense of a bit of extra friction - fine in the rear shocks with the leverage the wheel has anyway).

Then under that in the silver billet shaft support, there's another quad ring seal (like a double o-ring, but with less friction) to keep moisture and muck/dust out again.
And then behind that there's a fabric/silicon grease seal - low friction and very good at keeping in oil, and keeping out moisture - they use it on the propshaft of boats...
And just in case, there's another quad-ring seal behind that to keep the oil in.

It's quite effective, I've seen a couple of Foxes off the old 206 come back from an event with 3 inch long scores, chips and a bend in the shafts - still didn't loose any oil...

So dust isn't really a problem, a shield to stop stonechips might be beneficial though, something I'm working on with Fox (they were supposed to be doing me some anodised ally ones)

edit: And the spherical bearings are certified Aurora units too - COM-E series, ptfe-lined, hardened stainless steel race and ball, they'll last a while Smile

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 05:04
c.a.r.

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Post #77
Don't take this the wrong way Phil I'm not trying to insult you..

Doesn't there become a point in development where every extra modification is actually moot from making any improvement?

I thought the one thing that made the Torsion bar rear suspension so useful on a circuit was that it was very simple but effective. Surely adding all these additional modifications will eventually make the handling characteristics disappear from the 306 you're adapting?

Just curious. I'm not clued-up on all this like you are, I did afterall go through my teenage years with a MaxPower subscription LOL

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 05:12
phillipm

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Post #78
It's not very effective in terms of damping though - you've only got to watch a PSA car when it's rallying to see how the back end flicks itself up over bumps - that's because the damper only moves about 1 inch for every 2.5inches of wheel travel, so they have a hell of a job trying to control the wheels especially at low shaft speeds.

Hence, good damping on the back is very beneficial, to the extent that many rally cars, if the rules permit, actually fit rear turrets to get the motion ratio back to 1:1 instead of 2.5:1


Torsion bar rear suspension was done for 2 things only - cost and rear boot space.

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 05:26
c.a.r.

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Post #79
Still awake?!

I see, but if we're talking about a tarmac/touring car for smooth tracks is it less or more important to get the damping correct? And how does it differ? Apart from having less travel, is there less damping?

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 05:26
phillipm

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Post #80
Actually it's harder to get the damping right on a road/track car than a pure tarmac car - you can get away with the damping being a touch soft or a touch too stiff on a smooth racetrack, but when you're trying to cope with potholes and more travel being used on the road, plus the occasional foray onto the track, you're effectively trying to combine a rally damping curve with a tarmac one, and trying to provide a good level of body control to make up for the softer springs and high CoG - ad then trying to keep the whole shebang comfortable to boot - hence damping on a performance road/track car is actually far more critical than a pure tarmac race car.

Right up until he starts using the kerbs anyway.

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 05:32
phillipm

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Post #81
quote:
Apart from having less travel, is there less damping?


Less travel would generally mean more damping - the damper's primary function is to control the springs, secondary function is to control the weight transfer rates of the chassis (which affects how the car 'feels'), and thirdly for control of tyre vibrations, mainly through the high-speed rebound circuits.

As you have less travel and you're on smooth tarmac, you generally run much higher rebound rates to control the springs, compression rates may not change anywhere near as much though as now you have higher spring rates absorbing the bumps.


That's very simplified but damper design is something you could spend your whole life learning new tweaks for every day.


Put it this way, if Pete put his Penske dampers on your car for a day, you'd be done for murder when he came to take them back...

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 05:48
jimmy_boy

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Post #82
phillipm wrote:
Put it this way, if Pete put his Penske dampers on your car for a day, you'd be done for murder when he came to take them back...


Not if he returned with his gas blowtorch Whistle

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Posted 7th Sep 2009 at 20:13
welshpug!

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Post #83
just thought, these would be ideal for the Rally car I was servicing over the weekend, british tarmac rallies it does so generally airfields so abrasive concrete/tarmac usually with severe bumps expansion gaps potholes and the likes, though not usually any jumps.

it would benefit greatly from an upgrade in rear spring rate as its on 19mm bars Doh

shame the driver isnt the most technical person so doesn't really understand what we're on about when we say its too soft at the back LOL

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:05
phillipm

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Post #84
To be honest, that's the sort of crowd I was aiming at, ideal for club rallies and the like, as they don't have to find a grand a corner for ultra-spec dampers and new torsion bars LOL

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:07
clen666

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Post #85
damn, I thought you were aiming at the 'I think I'm a race driver so I'm going to buy loads of shiney bits to make me think I'm going faster' crowd.

If not then these might not be for me Unsure

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:13
phillipm

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Post #86
Well. I'll let them have some if they want.
I've got the show market covered too, chrome + remote reservoirs, sorted LOL

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:17
vts_tibi

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Post #87
now the question is: when will be the fronts finished?

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:18
phillipm

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Post #88
Going by the rears, this time next year LOL

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:21
vts_tibi

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Post #89
phillipm wrote:
Going by the rears, this time next year LOL


Doh

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best 60' : 2.272
best 1/8 ET : 9.375 @ 74.42mph
best 1/4 ET: 14.603 @ 97.047mph

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:25
clen666

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Post #90
time to save! woohoo!

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 00:36
phillipm

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Post #91
^^Exactly, it's was perfectly planned Whistle

Interest thread in the for sale section.

Now then, is anybody on a 'charged setup seriously struggling for traction? Whistle



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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 06:53
spiky

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Post #92
so fitting these you are removing the TB's?

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 13:28
phillipm

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Post #93
No, these bolt straight in the standard damper position.

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 13:50
spiky

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Post #94
sorry, my question was a bit vague,

i mean will you fit theses, and do away with the TB's, or run both like as std

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 13:55
phillipm

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Post #95
I'll run both, the spring rate bump on these is only an assistance to the main TB rate - these practically can't practically go above 35lb/inch at the minute.

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Posted 8th Sep 2009 at 14:05
phillipm

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Post #96
I'm too nice to you lot:


Billet floating piston from the other side:


Barrel-type compression adjuster:


And the secondary set of high-speed digressive-linear blowoff valving for when the low speed circuit chokes.


I've got to take that apart later on for cleaning so I'll get some pictures of the internals.

You can restack all the shims in here too to adjust how much chance the adjuster gives, and where in the curve the adjuster comes into effect.
Just in case you'd got bored with those 27 million stack combinations in the main body...

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Posted 9th Sep 2009 at 23:53
phillipm

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Post #97
Here ya go then, full set Wink

The secondary valving ports - as you can see 2 of these have spring loaded ball-bearings in them, these are to allow the oil to flow back freely in rebound - the amount of these that are open changes whether the adjuster actually adjusts the rebound at all, and where in the adjusters travel it starts to affect the rebound as well as the compression, it can be set to have no effect on the rebound at all:


The secondary shim stack - in this case a digressive stack - all those thin shims make a strong, but fairly soft stack, so they have a set amount of preload against the housings, so that it takes a set amount of force to open them, changing the preload affects where the high-speed blowoff comes in, the shape and thickness of the stack adjusts the ratio of low-to-high speed adjustment made.


This is what your shiny aluminium knob adjusts - the bypass that goes around the shim stack, as you can see, 8 settings with various orifice sizes.



And the floating piston from the reservoirs - the O-ring seals the fluid from the gas, and another telfon-coated PEEK wear band to prevent the piston twisting.



Right, think that's about the end of the shiny pictures LOL

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Posted 11th Sep 2009 at 03:22
allanallen

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Post #98
Are there any plans to make the extra spring rate externally adjustable? Would be handy for dry and wet settings?!
Just to clear it up, whats the extra 35lb spring rate the equivalent to in torsion bar size increase? Ie, is it like adding an extra milly to the torsion bar diameter? Hope that makes sense, al

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Posted 11th Sep 2009 at 04:21
pete_rallye

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Post #99
So the 'spring' rate is adjusted by the amount of nitrogen pressure in the shock? No additional spring pressure (standard torsion bar) would be no gas pressure, or very litle, and higher pressure would be equivalent to a higher tb size? That sound summin' like?

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Posted 11th Sep 2009 at 04:28
phillipm

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Post #100
Yes, it's roughly like going up just over 1mm in torsion bar size from stock.


Right, regarding the spring rate assistance:

The shocks have a fixed spring assist rate when you order them via a mechanism which I haven't shown yet, then the gas pressure adds an almost constant force - i.e, it just adds 30lb no matter where it is, unlike a spring that would give 30lb per inch.

So, adjusting the gas pressure is more like winding preload on coilovers - it can raise and lower the car slightly, but won't affect the spring rate.
However, because it's a gas spring, it is slightly progressive, so it does give a slight rate increase - about 20lb/inch at maximum pressure, and at the lowest recommend gas pressure approximately 10lb/inch.

So the spring rate is adjustable slightly by the pressure in the shock if you wanted, but be aware that it also affects the preload level/cavitation resistance and the friction/hystersis of the damper.

Like I say, the main rate assist is built in to the res. when the shock is constructed, although it can be changed fairly easily.

The nitrogen pressure is just for fine tuning really.


edit: I hope that made sense! LOL

If you were heading to a drag strip you'd wind the pressure right up just for every bit you can get.
For wet weather you'd be better of winding the low-speed compression off slightly on the adjust to get the weight to transfer over faster anyway.

There will eventually be a version that varies a lot more using the nitrogen pressure - I had intended that to be the first version, but I need to sort out some heat issues first, so they're on the back burner until I've sorted out the fronts.

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Posted 11th Sep 2009 at 05:03

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