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Author Subject: 4-2-1 gti6 manifold
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

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Post #151
clen666 wrote:
I had thought about this too, but I think the kit had been designed to reach peak input shaft speed at the top of the rev range, fitting a smaller pulley would mean it's operating outside of its efficient range Dunno


Yes, by fitting a smaller pulley you will make the charger unstable at the higher engine rpm ranges...Yes

Therefore the decision was made to keep the 80mm pulley. Also, it is difficult to get more low down power with the standard camshafts, as they don't really "come on" til 4k anyway, whether you've got a charger or not. That being the case, if you wanted more low down power you would need to move to a milder set of cams, but this would compromise the higher rpm power. Yes

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Posted 30th Apr 2012 at 18:49
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welshpug!

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Post #152
you also have to remember about the poor gearbox LOL

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Posted 30th Apr 2012 at 19:18
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eliotrw

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Post #153
Nothing is free my friends....

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Posted 30th Apr 2012 at 19:22
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buzzbrightyear

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Post #154
daveyboy wrote:
Nobody has thought to increase the speed of the charger so it's boosting earlier and providing more low down grunt.

It's been thought of but that would mean over revving the charger, there is a way of doing it but it's technical and has been done on the coneisegg I believe.

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Posted 30th Apr 2012 at 22:46
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

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Post #155
It's the cam profiles which stop more low down grunt from being developed not the charger speed. No

Milder cams will give you more low down at the expense of the top end range...

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Posted 30th Apr 2012 at 22:49
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

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Post #156
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Its the cam profiles which stop more low down grunt from being developed not the charger speed. No

Milder cams will give you more low down at the expense of the top end range...


Not really, if the charger actually made some meaningful boost sub 3k rpm the air/fuel could be squeezed in even with the relatively mild standard cams, its the fact that there is not much pressure available until the charger is really spinning fast.

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Posted 1st May 2012 at 12:48
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #157
daveyboy wrote:
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Its the cam profiles which stop more low down grunt from being developed not the charger speed. No

Milder cams will give you more low down at the expense of the top end range...


Not really, if the charger actually made some meaningful boost sub 3k rpm the air/fuel could be squeezed in even with the relatively mild standard cams, its the fact that there is not much pressure available until the charger is really spinning fast.


I disagree, the Turbo conversions seem to have the same issue. Yes

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Posted 2nd May 2012 at 19:36
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ryangti6

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Post #158
I agree with Daveyboy, this is why though the super charged conversions seem to have a lot better driveability. It's there to be seen buy watching a Turbo car anywhere near your power Stan, they've got no problem with Torque or power low down, they got too much they can't use.

I couldn't agree more with you Stan about cams affecting the conversion. I'm surprised With the money you and Buzz etc have spent that none of you have looked into getting some cams made to match your application a bit better. I would be surprised if you couldn't find some fairly decent gains in that area.

Is there a particular reason no one has?

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Posted 2nd May 2012 at 23:02
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fatlapit

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Post #159
turbo cams are available forthe gti6 but all forced systems have lag unless you twin charge the engine but its very complicated and as said above the gearbox is the weak point i think 450 is enough for it, when mine is done if some one wants to donate a gearbox or 2 i will test them to destruction to see what they can handle all i have to do is turn my nob up and after all it is being mapped to 22 psi circa 420hp but the shock loading on the box from the turbos torque delivery would be a good test. just turn it up a pound at a time i guess!!!

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 00:06
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phillipm

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Post #160
Probably find it's fatigue rather than an outright torque limit that you need to worry about.

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 00:16
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

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Post #161
stan_306gti6 wrote:
daveyboy wrote:
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Its the cam profiles which stop more low down grunt from being developed not the charger speed. No

Milder cams will give you more low down at the expense of the top end range...


Not really, if the charger actually made some meaningful boost sub 3k rpm the air/fuel could be squeezed in even with the relatively mild standard cams, its the fact that there is not much pressure available until the charger is really spinning fast.


I disagree, the Turbo conversions seem to have the same issue. Yes



You are seeing lag and assuming its the same thing Stan, a big turbo will take time too spool up and unless you use a small turbo there will be insufficient exhaust gas speed to get the turbo boosting at low rpms. This has nothing to do with cam choice, if you had boost you could burn more fuel and have power low down, it's finding a way to get more boost for more of the rev range that seems to be the hard part.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 00:22
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prism7guy

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Post #162
daveyboy wrote:
it's finding a way to get more boost for more of the rev range that seems to be the hard part.


Some sort of CVT?
I doubt it'd be light or easy to make/develop though so the benefits may not outweigh the down sides. Dunno

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 07:27
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

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Post #163
prism7guy wrote:
daveyboy wrote:
it's finding a way to get more boost for more of the rev range that seems to be the hard part.


Some sort of CVT?
I doubt it'd be light or easy to make/develop though so the benefits may not outweigh the down sides. Dunno


Exactly, you just have to live with the fact that a big charger/turbo will be very good somewhere in the powerband, but no everywhere, I guess the ideal setup is small turbo big charger or vice versa.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 07:38
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fatlapit

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Post #164
wats the matter with dropping down a cog???

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 09:07
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #165
fatlapit wrote:
wats the matter with dropping down a cog???


Must admit, this was my thought. I have never had a problem with getting the power out of the conversion as long as you keep it in the powerband. Yes

Yes, if your doing 40mph in 6th pottering along and then floor it you can't expect it to just pick up and throw you back in the seat. It will of course pick up and take you right through to 160mph easily, but if you want to get there like the speed of sound then drop it down to 3rd and go through the gears. After all, thats what the gearbox is there for to enable the driver to select the appropriate gear for the revs of the engine and speed of the vehicle. Whistle

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 09:47
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fatlapit

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Post #166
or buy a diesel however the turbo on my car is designed to come in at 2500 and pull all the way through the rev range.

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:12
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #167
The Rotrex chargers can become unstable over 10,000rpm input shaft speed which is why if you went to a smaller pulley you would be over-revving it at the top engine rpm range. Yes

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:16
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fatlapit

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Post #168
so when do you see positive boost??

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:35
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fatlapit

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Post #169
chargers dont really spin that fast do they?

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:37
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

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Post #170
fatlapit wrote:
so when do you see positive boost??


About 3k rpm on a low boost, couldn't say about the other variants.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:40
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

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Post #171
fatlapit wrote:
so when do you see positive boost??


I haven't got a boost gauge on board, but you can start to feel it around 3k and then really comes in hard at 4k. Yes

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:42
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fatlapit

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Post #172
nt that bad

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:42
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

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Post #173
fatlapit wrote:
chargers dont really spin that fast do they?


Yes

Think about it, when the engine is turning at 8,000rpm the charger pulley at 80mm diameter is a lot smaller than the bottom pulley so it will be spinning faster than 8,000rpm. Yes

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:45
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fatlapit

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Post #174
like but how big are they?? turbine size

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Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:50
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

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Post #175
I'm not sure exactly, but I would say about 50mm from memory when I last had the intake off mine...

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 3rd May 2012 at 10:53
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