displaying posts 26 to 50 of 63

Pages (3): 1 [2] 3

Author Subject: Max revs on stroked XU10J4RS?
sandy

Junior User

Location: Truro

Registered: 02 Oct 2005

Posts: 70

Status: Offline

Post #26
My opinion, based on direct experience... hydraulic lifters can become unreliable past 7500rpm in the XU10J4.

Cast Peugeot cranks often bend if subjected to over 10k and wipe out the bearings. Steel cranks (properly made) don't just increase the rpm damage threshold, they're stiffer and therefore reduce losses, improve bearing reliability and make overall timing more predictable.

Rod length and thrust in this case isn't too big a problem due to the block height, but generally piston speeds over 24m/s mean in conventional engine blocks are to be avoided if you want it to last. The XU10 block does show signs of flex and pinch if this is exceeded without running undesirable clearances for a daily (ish) engine. That threshold is at:

86mm 8450rpm
88mm 8300rpm
92mm 7950rpm
96mm 7600rpm
98mm 7450rpm

You can exceed this reliably if you make suitable provisions to manage the addtional movement and stresses, but you need alot of data on the engine to know what's needed. One of the engines I work on regularly reliably runs up to around 29m/s mean on a 1.5:1 rod/stroke ratio because it's so highly developed and the Hart 427R derivative is even more extreme, but only through exceptional development!
Posted 14th May 2012 at 19:01
pete_rallye

Seasoned Pro

Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

Status: Offline

Post #27
The main thing with the crank is making sure it is perfectly balanced along with the pistons, rods, flywheel and clutch. If it's all balanced together then you'll have a smooth running engine which will put minimal stress on the crank. Obviously a point will come where the rpm is still too much, but I would expect this to be quite high and as Rich said, I would expect the rods and bolts to be a bigger consideration than the crank. With the piston going from roughly 80>0>80mph in less than half a second the stress on the rods and bolts would be immense.

With the lifters Rich has proved that they are reliable well over 8k rpm, but I would be a little concerned if it was a pure race engine, and basically spending it's entire life at 6-9k rpm, and I personally would fit mechanical lifters.

The other thing to consider is longevity. Sure the Maxi engines were revved to 11k rpm, but I suspect they would have had titanium valves and mega lightweight pistons to reduce the stresses. With mega lightweight stuff and high revs comes the need to rebuild the engines regularly. I spoke to Matt at Pug1off a bit back and he told me that the engine he has built that made just over 300bhp at around 9800rpm needed a rebuild every 500 miles. Not a problem if you're pockets are deep enough mind!

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 14th May 2012 at 19:03
fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

Status: Offline

Post #28
birk wrote:
What about the normal standard crank, lightended flywheel and pully, 86.5 pistons, standard head, standard size saanz rods, arp bolts ?

You think 8.5k would be safe ? or should i push it to 9k with my turbo setup?


mate you dont need to rev a turbo engine like that just keep it in the torque band and it will fly, anything over 8.5k i would steel crank it.

________________________________________


Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:21
birk

Seasoned Pro

Location: Doncaster

Registered: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 7,032

Status: Offline

Post #29
I think 8.5k will be the limit on mine, I will find where my peak power/torque is when setting my limit.

________________________________________

Dimma + Gt35 turbo = Ninja
Solid rear beam mounts £130
07889376885
Dan
Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:26
fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

Status: Offline

Post #30
i think your turbo will start dropping off at 7800 anyway mate, i bet peak performance will be well under 7000

________________________________________


Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:37
fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

Status: Offline

Post #31
i`m sticking to stock revs dude

________________________________________


Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:38
rallyeash

Seasoned Pro

Location: Devizes

Registered: 11 Dec 2006

Posts: 4,424

Status: Offline

Post #32
People seem obsessed with revving 8k+. Id rather power where you actually use it which is between 4 and 6.5k.

My engine is just a track day engine not a full out race engine, it only revs to 7600 but peak power which is around 200@wheels is less than 7k

________________________________________

230 hp 2.1 16v XU 205 rallye on jenveysHyper Project thread here
309 3dr K20 Type R
Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:50
fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

Status: Offline

Post #33
^ good point well presented mate

________________________________________


Posted 14th May 2012 at 22:00
asim_pug306

Senior User

Location: Bradford

Registered: 26 Aug 2009

Posts: 933

Status: Offline

Post #34
This must be the sort of thing discussed at length on Honda forums. VTEC kicks in at 10k yo!!

________________________________________

'01 Astor Grey GTi6

'99 Cherry Rallye
Posted 14th May 2012 at 22:50
buzzbrightyear

Seasoned Pro

Location: hiding all receipts for car

Registered: 09 Jul 2008

Posts: 11,894

Status: Offline

Post #35
I'd rather my power came in at 2000 and ended at 6500-7000.
That would be a perfect power band in my opinion,

________________________________________

andrew315rawson@live.co.uk
Moonstone phase 7 gti6
My Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=119992&page=1
Posted 15th May 2012 at 08:59
buzzbrightyear

Seasoned Pro

Location: hiding all receipts for car

Registered: 09 Jul 2008

Posts: 11,894

Status: Offline

Post #36
The power band on the st tdci with the bluefin is great, 1500-3500 rpm , it's instant power as soon as you get just over tickover, the only problem is there's just not enough of it..

________________________________________

andrew315rawson@live.co.uk
Moonstone phase 7 gti6
My Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=119992&page=1
Posted 15th May 2012 at 09:01
fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

Status: Offline

Post #37
turbo ftw always

________________________________________


Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:02
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

Status: Offline

Post #38
buzzbrightyear wrote:
I'd rather my power came in at 2000 and ended at 6500-7000.
That would be a perfect power band in my opinion,


I would agree 100% with this. Yes

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:09
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

Status: Offline

Post #39
I think a lot of the posts made in this thread have very good points, if you are talking about a full-time race engine.

I wouldn't be happy having hydraulic lifters in my engine if it was a pure race engine and spent ALL of it's time between 6-8.5k. However, seeing as it's very driveable and happy and every now and then gets its legs stretched to 8k I don't see it as a problem...

I think for each application it is different and before starting a build you need to consider what that engine is going to have to suffer in its life. A road going supercharger conversion like mine running over 450bhp is fine with standard lifters and crank, however if I raised the rev limit even more and put my engine in a pure racing enviroment I would reconsider which components to put in it. Yes

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:14
fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

Status: Offline

Post #40
but a blown racing engine wouldnt run past 8k stan imo, for either turbo or sc they would just run out of puff or self destruct as the turbine speed would be off the scale.

________________________________________


Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:20
allanallen

Seasoned Pro

Location: Buxton

Registered: 01 May 2007

Posts: 1,399

Status: Offline

Post #41
fatlapit wrote:
but a blown racing engine wouldnt run past 8k stan imo, for either turbo or sc they would just run out of puff or self destruct as the turbine speed would be off the scale.


Please explain this comment as it makes no sense whatsoever

________________________________________

www.bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk

Facebook
Posted 15th May 2012 at 12:25
rikky 🦔

Location: cheshire

Registered: 28 Feb 2004

Posts: 26,793

Status: Offline

Post #42
best explanation is "this is the gti6 forum, where heads full of magic perform their tricks"

________________________________________

306 rallye reproduction decals (full sets/individual decals) | 306 b-pillar textured vinyl weatherstrips
306 slam panel esso stickers | 306 yellow / orange / pension fund red side door badges
gti6 inlet manifold badges | 306 rear boot badges (p2/p3)
winner of Extraction of toys from prams with outstanding vigour award 2009 [source: gti6 owners club]
Posted 15th May 2012 at 12:31
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

Status: Offline

Post #43
fatlapit wrote:
but a blown racing engine wouldnt run past 8k stan imo, for either turbo or sc they would just run out of puff or self destruct as the turbine speed would be off the scale.


Really?

How did F1 cars manage it then in the late 80's with 1.5l V6 Turbos revving fairly high?

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:07
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,817

Status: Offline

Post #44
Have seen a Greek evo that revs to 9+, something silly like 850 bhp on low boost, under 1 bar Laugh my ass off

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:10
adam b

Seasoned Pro

Location: The Nam

Registered: 24 Jan 2006

Posts: 12,828

Status: Offline

Post #45
Most import STi impreza engines run just past 8k iirc.

A friend of mine has a V40 T4 running 450BHp @ 9.5k rpm

________________________________________

Nothing to see here
Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:13
matty_rallye

Senior User

Location: Devizes

Registered: 28 Oct 2005

Posts: 966

Status: Offline

Post #46
adam b wrote:
Most import STi impreza engines run just past 8k iirc.

A friend of mine has a V40 T4 running 450BHp @ 9.5k rpm


Recent PPC feature?

Is the difference with the S/C engines revving highly and being reliable due to the fact they are on standard camshafts with less lift and duration. As apposed to a n/a engine being unable to sustain this type of rpm on hydraulic lifters, as when there is a need for them to rev this highly they are using cams which have greater lift and duration?

________________________________________

2.1 16v 306 Rallye.
Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:43
adam b

Seasoned Pro

Location: The Nam

Registered: 24 Jan 2006

Posts: 12,828

Status: Offline

Post #47
Yes Ashok's blue one. Its a beast of a thing and very standard-looking.

So the valve has to move further, quicker matty?

________________________________________

Nothing to see here
Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:59
dav1

Regular

Location: leek/staffs

Registered: 20 Jun 2011

Posts: 312

Status: Offline

Post #48
rallyeash wrote:
People seem obsessed with revving 8k+. Id rather power where you actually use it which is between 4 and 6.5k.

My engine is just a track day engine not a full out race engine, it only revs to 7600 but peak power which is around 200@wheels is less than 7k


Why you say this would it not depend on your gearbox an other factors? If you were had your main power between 6 an 9 thou then that we're you would use it? Hope that makes sense lol. I like to widen my knowledge ? I thought the main reason most people increase revs is how you get more power on n/a engines due to wilder cams and other stuff? Cheers dave

________________________________________

230bhp 205 gti6
Posted 15th May 2012 at 14:37
henrik c

Regular

Location: Søllested

Registered: 17 Jan 2008

Posts: 164

Status: Offline

Post #49
welshpug! wrote:
Have seen a Greek evo that revs to 9+, something silly like 850 bhp on low boost, under 1 bar Laugh my ass off


Got a freind making 1.200HP on a VW R36 engine by 27 PSI 5.500 revs

________________________________________

/Henrik C
Posted 15th May 2012 at 14:40
ruan

Junior User

Location: Truro

Registered: 17 Sep 2009

Posts: 64

Status: Offline

Post #50
fatlapit wrote:
mate you dont need to rev a turbo engine like that just keep it in the torque band and it will fly, anything over 8.5k i would steel crank it.


End of the day - Torque damages things and RPMs damage things... Take your pick of which you damage - make more of one or the other and you'll end up with more horsepower.

Unless you fancy both - where you'll have masses of horsepower, but damage everything.
Posted 15th May 2012 at 14:50

Pages (3): 1 [2] 3

All times are GMT. The time is now 22:39

The Peugeot GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club - ©2024 all rights reserved.

Please Note: The views and opinions found herein are those of individuals, and not of The Peugeot 306 GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club or any individuals involved.
No responsibility is taken or assumed for any comments or statements made on, or in relation to, this website. Please see our updated privacy policy.