Post #26
Last one
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Bye bye Sundance Kid
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| Author | Subject: Technical induction discussion |
 cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro  Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Last one |
 Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 05:00
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phillipm
Seasoned Pro  Location: Rotherham Registered: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 20,607 Status: Offline |
Post #27
^^The 1.4 uses that exact system...________________________________________ - Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM meEmail me! Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces. |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 05:07
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #28
what, gilesy's?  ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 05:08
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720puggti
Seasoned Pro  Location: West London Registered: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 1,069 Status: Offline |
Post #29
What gilesy just posted is more along the lines of what I'm used to....________________________________________ Deepak Gohil |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 05:36
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey  Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #30
cwspellowe wrote: Last one That looks pretty good, you don't want such a sharp angle on the outlet cone though, if you have a space put on a longer one with a less acute angle on it. ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 13:47
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #31
Space is a big issue, ideally don't want to have to relocate things for practicality reasons. Need to put a pram in the boot so battery relocation isn't an option, meaning I can't rearrange everything else. If I could move the battery, I could more the who ABS unit and fuse box and have the airbox behind the headlight but nae luck, would involve a lot of work.Davey the filters i've been looking at have a spun aluminium neck, like this ITG Maxogen Looks better to me than the likes of K&N and Pipercross that just have a flat wall with a pipe stuck in it. Any idea what difference the coned and fully coned filters would have? Thinking of the coned JC60/73FC. Outlet is spun aluminium, 73mm ID, 76mm OD. Filter length is 152mm, diameter 149mm at the neck reducing to 114mm at the base. According to my maths that leaves this:  Space is going to be tight, I only measured enough room for a 17cm diameter box with a 20cm - 25cm tapered base. Air's going to have to come from behind the fog light through a 90degree bend unless I want to invest in a new rad to leave space at the n/s. The idea was to create a kit that improves on the £200 enclosed jobbies, a new shiny rad and top hose kind of blows the budget  ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 20:49
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bobdylan_55
Seasoned Pro  Location: derby Registered: 28 Mar 2009 Posts: 1,466 Status: Offline |
Post #32
what you need is one of these Itbs, and CFD tested for airflow (Y) work is my own ________________________________________ 309 GTi6-T |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 21:19
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #33
nice, but not exactly conforming to the £200 budget I need to learn how to use fluid dynamic software  ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 9th Jul 2011 at 21:51
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prism7guy
Seasoned Pro  Location: DoncastAAAAARGH Registered: 13 Jan 2008 Posts: 4,639 Status: Offline |
Post #34
At uni i used Gambit and Fluent to do some CFD, i didn't really like it though, sometimes results seemed to not make sense, and boy did it like to crash every now and again  I believe it can be acquired from certain sources on the internet, but its not software that you can really teach yourself like most software, and it needs a fairly decent spec pc to do all the calculations in a reasonable amount of time. ________________________________________ Goldie the track car. |
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Posted 10th Jul 2011 at 01:04
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bobdylan_55
Seasoned Pro Location: derby Registered: 28 Mar 2009 Posts: 1,466 Status: Offline |
Post #35
i used the built in software to solidworks. It can be tempremental but seems to give quite good results if ran on decent resolution tests. I worked out that that design ^^^ flowed quite a bit better than standard and also reduced turbulence, which in the standard inlet was quite bad in the last 2 cylinders towards the end of the plenum chamber. ________________________________________ 309 GTi6-T |
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Posted 11th Jul 2011 at 02:18
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #36
Been having a rethink, will be relocating the battery to the boot and the ABS to where the battery is.Currently mocking up a new airbox design out of polystyrene, going to carve it up and bondo the outside to seal it, then make a fiberglass mould. Thinking of a clasped lid to access the filter easy enough. Cold air will be routed from directly underneath the airbox, fed by the fog light. Bespoke all carbon system with the inlet tract being made from carbon too, laying the shape with polyethylene tube as it's a delicate angle, about 10degrees or so, from the headlight area to square with the throttle body. It'll then be used as a male mould to make a carbon inlet pipe. Incidentally i'm looking at making carbon fibre 90 degree elbows to fit normal induction kits if anyone's interested? ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 04:54
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro  Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #37
How much would they be do you think?________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 15:57
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #38
I'm pricing it up now, but it's not looking cheap! Shiny though!Trying to decide which would be better, using a braided sleeve rolled over a mandrel or laying the cloth and having a join, hidden from sight..  ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 16:00
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adam b
Seasoned Pro  Location: The Nam Registered: 24 Jan 2006 Posts: 12,828 Status: Offline |
Post #39
Hang on a minute. Have you seen the BTCC setup? Uses a smaller rad located in the same place on the drivers side but is 3" inboard on the passenger. The space is then used with a full height opening into a filter and huge carbon airbox straight onto the TB.I've seen one for sale in 6 years and it went for decent money with the rad on ebay. Too much for me at the time. Wish i'd bought it though. Induction length always seemed to make a difference. The filter on to the TB seemed to make very little torque compared to a K&N 57i in the standard airbox with the lid off. Water depth never, ever seemed to be an issue for me! ________________________________________ Nothing to see here |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 17:11
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adam b
Seasoned Pro Location: The Nam Registered: 24 Jan 2006 Posts: 12,828 Status: Offline |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 17:14
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #41
I like that, but the custom rad bit doesn't appeal to be honest. I've a 2 year old Nissens that seems to be doing a good enough job and don't want to have to buy another rad!Enclosed cone/cylindrical filter or panel filter? For the amount of space I have to work with, a cone would give more surface area in a smaller space. Thinking that's still the best option to be honest... ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 21:27
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adam b
Seasoned Pro Location: The Nam Registered: 24 Jan 2006 Posts: 12,828 Status: Offline |
Post #42
Could you not move your rad over a bit or up/down to make the space? Or take it from the area under the bonnet leading edge (where the normal snorkel hops over the rad)? Shorten the induction length and take it from the high pressure area on the front.To give you an idea impreza and volvo standard airboxes with flat panel filters are fine for way over 300BHp. I reckon the standard 306 box is good, but the pipework to the TB could be better. If you could make that box lighter, remove the resonator and take it off the standard intake pipe then happy days. ________________________________________ Nothing to see here |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 22:24
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gilesy
Seasoned Pro  Location: Greenwich - in that London Registered: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5,133 Status: Offline |
Post #43
Aren't you reinventing the wheel a little? I like the thinking behind it all but can't help thinking it'll be for so little a gain that its not worth it |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 22:36
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lotek
Seasoned Pro  Location: Berkshire Registered: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 6,107 Status: Offline |
Post #44
just make a box and point a co2 exinguisher into it and squeese lever when you wanna go faster  |
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Posted 14th Jul 2011 at 22:47
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic  Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,817 Status: Offline |
Post #45
405 T16 used the same air filter element and canister as the 306 at 220 bhp.________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 15th Jul 2011 at 00:28
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #46
adam b wrote: I reckon the standard 306 box is good, but the pipework to the TB could be better. If you could make that box lighter, remove the resonator and take it off the standard intake pipe then happy days. Exactly, too many bends, flexi sections, all adds to turbulence. Plus the plastic isn't great for heat shielding. I'm looking at a full carbon system from air scoop to throttle body, the first time it will come into contact with heat of any sort will be at the throttle body as opposed to sucking cold air in from the start. gilesy wrote: Aren't you reinventing the wheel a little? I like the thinking behind it all but can't help thinking it'll be for so little a gain that its not worth it Not at all. I never said I was trying to improve on the standard system, although it could be done. I'm making something more car-specific than a "universal" CAI kit like the BMC and the Viper. Considering they're around the £200 mark, and I reckon I can do all this for around £100 including the ITG filter, why not? Only reinventing the wheel so far as making my own consolidated pipework and airbox. People do that all the time by fitting an induction kit, only they go with what the filter manufacturer says is best  Like I said, a "306 specific" induction kit just mean it has a 76mm neck diameter. Mine WILL be specific. If it does no better than a Viper or BMC, who cares? I've still built an enclosed carbon induction kit for half the price of them new. ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 15th Jul 2011 at 01:23
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lewisdmz
Senior User Location: plymouth Registered: 25 Jul 2009 Posts: 504 Status: Offline |
Post #47
Interesting thread.How much of an effect would turbulance inside the enclosure on the unfiltered side make? Wonder if you could put some fins or something inside the box to try and calm things down a bit? /clueless speculation I was thinking of wrapping the standard airbox in some sort of heat reflective tape. I bet the whole thing heats up pretty well but I wasn't sure how much it would actually increase intake temps, i mean how long is the air in there for 1 second max? How much can it really heat up in that amount of time? |
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Posted 17th Jul 2011 at 01:19
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cwspellowe
Seasoned Pro Location: Calderbank Registered: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 6,496 Status: Offline |
Post #48
Compared to an open filter, an enclosed box with external feed keeps inlet temps much cooler. Plastic suffices, the Audi R8 for instance has a V8 engine mid mounted with a plastic airbox and that seems to manage!Carbon will help keep temps as close to atmospheric as possible, the main issues with heat usually only come with open filters, or high powered engines that put out a lot of heat. Engines respond best when the air being drawn is the least turbulent. That's one reason why undertrays help if you have an open filter, reduces turbulence in the engine bay. Also a vented engine bay to allow air to flow through it instead of sitting in it will bring temperatures down. Not sure how to reduce turbulence in the box, but as smooth an inlet as possible will help. Same with the cold air feed. ________________________________________ Bye bye Sundance Kid |
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Posted 17th Jul 2011 at 01:53
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monkeyman
Seasoned Pro  Location: Sunny St Albans Registered: 01 Oct 2008 Posts: 1,955 Status: Offline |
Post #49
Here's a couple of induction mods Ive worked onAirbox/throttle pipe Throttle - foglight pipe Both made an improvement, the second more so. Another member made a copy of the second one out of two 90o silicone bends and some aluminium pipe which worked well on his car. I was thinking of making another with a 76-90mm bend at the top http://www.auto-performance.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=23_44&products_id=476 and 90mm pipework to the filter http://www.auto-performance.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_39&products_id=304 http://www.auto-performance.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=36_143&products_id=870 but I dont know if it would make much improvement over what Im using already. I've driven this in torrential rain with no problems. Mounting behind the foglight gives a good flow of cold air. ________________________________________ Spanner Monkeys Monkey SpannerForum Search Clicky |
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Posted 24th Jul 2011 at 23:12
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lewisdmz
Senior User Location: plymouth Registered: 25 Jul 2009 Posts: 504 Status: Offline |
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Posted 29th Jul 2011 at 02:47
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