displaying posts 1 to 16 of 16

Author Subject: J4R with J4RS head?
Kale

Newbie

Location: HML, Finland

Registered: 17 Apr 2013

Posts: 39

Status: Offline

Post #1
Just playing with the idea.

Probably a straight fit? But what about everything else around it. How would it run compared to genuine rs block?

I have a full j4r engine from a 406 (still in the car I'm breaking) around as a spare and bought a rs head from a Xsara VTS just for kicks a while ago. Thought about putting them together and using RS engine management with RS injectors and everything to run it. Is this possible?

This would allow the engine to be fitted to a 205 here in Finland because it would be treated as a J4R engine when taking it to the mot. Max engine output allowed is the best model (1.9 GTi) with +20% more and that makes max output 156hp. J4R has 132hp on the paper. Smile

________________________________________

306 S16 "Peugeot Sport GrpN" '94, 405 Mi16 "OEM+" '89, 605 SV24 "Executive Express" '91
Posted 20th Apr 2013 at 20:23
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,817

Status: Offline

Post #2
it is possible, however the difference is in the cylinder head, RS head has "RS" cast on the end and a vacuum pump, no other late XU head used a vacuum pump...

XU10J4R has "10" XU7 has "7" cash on the end.

________________________________________

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Posted 20th Apr 2013 at 21:01
Kale

Newbie

Location: HML, Finland

Registered: 17 Apr 2013

Posts: 39

Status: Offline

Post #3
Yeah but it doesn't matter. It will still pass as a R engine, it's not like it will be checked throughout - I will have the papers about it being the R engine from my 406 and that's that.. They check that the engine is mounted correctly and that fuel lines are acceptable. In Finland you will have to take the car to the mot after making changes and the changes will be written to the cars registration papers.

Like if you change the suspension, wheels, engine etc. On an engine swap you'll get papers from Peugeot Finland that state the differences and changes needed (like if you're starting with a minor model) for the car to be equalent with the best model available (and if the car is already the best model then there are no changes) and also the information about the engine being swapped (power output, displacement, emission classifications). It's quite easy, if the +20% power rule doesn't go over, there is also a +25% rule for displacement but it's not a big deal with Peugeots.. Tho' V6 is not an option here because of it Sad

When I took my 306 to the mot when making the change from XSi->S16 it was mostly paperwork. The inspector came outside and popped the hood, checked the fuel lines and that was it. He went inside and made the new papers from the documentation I provided him. He didn't even measure the emissions (well, because they where measured earlier and they were still valid).

But enough about that, I'm not even sure if I will put the engine to a 205 or something else, will the engine work the way it should? Haven't yet checked the specs anywhere but is there a big difference in compression ratio between R and RS?

________________________________________

306 S16 "Peugeot Sport GrpN" '94, 405 Mi16 "OEM+" '89, 605 SV24 "Executive Express" '91
Posted 20th Apr 2013 at 21:32
JWP EFi

Turbo Legend!

Location: edinburgh

Registered: 07 Mar 2010

Posts: 2,163

Status: Offline

Post #4
Kale wrote:
Yeah but it doesn't matter. It will still pass as a R engine, it's not like it will be checked throughout - I will have the papers about it being the R engine from my 406 and that's that.. They check that the engine is mounted correctly and that fuel lines are acceptable. In Finland you will have to take the car to the mot after making changes and the changes will be written to the cars registration papers.

Like if you change the suspension, wheels, engine etc. On an engine swap you'll get papers from Peugeot Finland that state the differences and changes needed (like if you're starting with a minor model) for the car to be equalent with the best model available (and if the car is already the best model then there are no changes) and also the information about the engine being swapped (power output, displacement, emission classifications). It's quite easy, if the +20% power rule doesn't go over, there is also a +25% rule for displacement but it's not a big deal with Peugeots.. Tho' V6 is not an option here because of it Sad

When I took my 306 to the mot when making the change from XSi->S16 it was mostly paperwork. The inspector came outside and popped the hood, checked the fuel lines and that was it. He went inside and made the new papers from the documentation I provided him. He didn't even measure the emissions (well, because they where measured earlier and they were still valid).

But enough about that, I'm not even sure if I will put the engine to a 205 or something else, will the engine work the way it should? Haven't yet checked the specs anywhere but is there a big difference in compression ratio between R and RS?


MOT the car with compliant engine, once its passed fit a proper XU10J4RS, job jobbed. i wouldnt bother f**king about with different heads, management etc just to pass a test. if you want GTI6 power just fit one and be done.
Posted 21st Apr 2013 at 22:25
Kale

Newbie

Location: HML, Finland

Registered: 17 Apr 2013

Posts: 39

Status: Offline

Post #5
You ain't quite getting the point here Wink

The reason I'm making this engine is JUST that I'm curious and maybe have some extra time to fiddle with bits I have around. I don't know where I'm going to put it in the end Big grin

________________________________________

306 S16 "Peugeot Sport GrpN" '94, 405 Mi16 "OEM+" '89, 605 SV24 "Executive Express" '91
Posted 23rd Apr 2013 at 04:07
JWP EFi

Turbo Legend!

Location: edinburgh

Registered: 07 Mar 2010

Posts: 2,163

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Post #6
it will run but not properly, basically all you are doing is de-rating the RS engine with the R head
Posted 23rd Apr 2013 at 07:37
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

Status: Offline

Post #7
T99PUG wrote:
it will run but not properly, basically all you are doing is de-rating the RS engine with the R head


No, he has an R engine and is fitting an RS head, so making the R engine better.

However, it won't work quite right on RS management as the R engine has a compression ratio of 10.4:1 and the RS has a compression ratio of 10.8:1, also the only other difference between the two blocks is that the R doesn't have the piston oil spray bars, but this won't affect running.

________________________________________

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Peugeot 306 GTi-6
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Posted 23rd Apr 2013 at 10:55
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,817

Status: Offline

Post #8
some R's do have the spray bars.

I doubt .4 will be noticeable off the compression, torque might be down a little.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 23rd Apr 2013 at 11:11
JWP EFi

Turbo Legend!

Location: edinburgh

Registered: 07 Mar 2010

Posts: 2,163

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Post #9
stan_306gti6 wrote:
T99PUG wrote:
it will run but not properly, basically all you are doing is de-rating the RS engine with the R head


No, he has an R engine and is fitting an RS head, so making the R engine better.

However, it won't work quite right on RS management as the R engine has a compression ratio of 10.4:1 and the RS has a compression ratio of 10.8:1, also the only other difference between the two blocks is that the R doesn't have the piston oil spray bars, but this won't affect running.


oh yea, my bad for not reading properly lol
Posted 23rd Apr 2013 at 18:27
Kale

Newbie

Location: HML, Finland

Registered: 17 Apr 2013

Posts: 39

Status: Offline

Post #10
I don't think it will affect too much, that small difference in compression ratio.

My plan is to throw the engine into a basic model 205 shell probably with 306 ph1 XSi or S16 BE3 gearbox (I have both). It will have the 1.9 gti bits in suspension needed to make the car handle but everything else will be kept stock. I'm looking for a rotten 1.9 gti shell with no engine atm, because I have a mint 1989 1.4 shell around.. It will have the original black bumbers and small wheel arches and so on Big grin The thing is, I'm doing it during the summer on a small budget and if the engine works somewhat like it should then it's enough. And if it doesn't, then... meh.

Why a basic model 205? Well it's probably one of the lightest options and it will be a b*stard on the road. No one will suspect anything Whistle

________________________________________

306 S16 "Peugeot Sport GrpN" '94, 405 Mi16 "OEM+" '89, 605 SV24 "Executive Express" '91
Posted 25th Apr 2013 at 14:24
Kale

Newbie

Location: HML, Finland

Registered: 17 Apr 2013

Posts: 39

Status: Offline

Post #11
Bought a 205 1.9 GTi for £160 (I convert the euros to pounds so it's easier for you guys to understand). It's quite beaten up, missing bumbers, tailgate, rear side windows etc. Only thing it has got the engine & gearbox with driveshafts.. And.. It has got the suspension and brakes so I have all the parts to make my basic 205 "gti-worthy" (which it needs to be when I take it to MOT). He would have sold it to me for a little less without the engine & gb but I thought it's easier for us both this way.

And at least now I have a pile of spare engine parts Big grin Not like I didn't before, for example there are: xu10j2, xu10j4, xu10j2te, xu10j4r, xu92c, xu9jaz, xu9ja, xu9j4, xu10j4rs head, xu10j4te bits.. I must have forgotten something but at least those are around as spares, then there are the engines in my cars..

________________________________________

306 S16 "Peugeot Sport GrpN" '94, 405 Mi16 "OEM+" '89, 605 SV24 "Executive Express" '91
Posted 27th Apr 2013 at 05:16
Kale

Newbie

Location: HML, Finland

Registered: 17 Apr 2013

Posts: 39

Status: Offline

Post #12
And about the piston oil jets. I checked around servicebox and looked up which engines have those oil jets.

It came up that when a XU10J4R engine is from a 406 or a 605, it will have those. But a 306 XSi 16v one won't. Weird.

But it means that I have those on my J4R bottom end. Anyone have original spec pistons and conrods for sale so I can make the engine RS spec? Wink If someone has a set for reasonable price, I'm more than willing to buy. After all the block & crank are identical.

________________________________________

306 S16 "Peugeot Sport GrpN" '94, 405 Mi16 "OEM+" '89, 605 SV24 "Executive Express" '91
Posted 27th Apr 2013 at 05:36
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #13
I have a set, want to make me an offer?

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Posted 29th Apr 2013 at 07:51
renick

Newbie

Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand

Registered: 04 Jun 2011

Posts: 19

Status: Offline

Post #14
Related question - Is there any benefit from fitting a RFS head to a RFY (J4) block? I've been discussing this with a friend who reckons the lower compression / shorter stroke will translate to increased valve clearance & enable more aggressive cams. Can't find any info on this being done though. Are the considerations above for a J4R block still the same?
Sorry about thread revival & semi-threadjack!

P.S. If built engine would replace Mi16 in a track car & be run either on carbs or ITB's if the budget allowed.

________________________________________

306 Ph2 GTI-6
306 Ph3 GTI-6

106 S1 Rallye
205 GTI mi16
309 GTI mi16 track car

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Posted 11th Nov 2013 at 22:43
dcc

Senior User

Location: Wales

Registered: 24 Feb 2009

Posts: 502

Status: Offline

Post #15
your matey is talking sh*t.

Cr will be 11.0-1 (ish) and your stroke wont change.

________________________________________

205 GTI
Xsara HDI
Posted 12th Nov 2013 at 13:51
renick

Newbie

Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand

Registered: 04 Jun 2011

Posts: 19

Status: Offline

Post #16
Both strokes are 86 then & just a slightly different piston?

________________________________________

306 Ph2 GTI-6
306 Ph3 GTI-6

106 S1 Rallye
205 GTI mi16
309 GTI mi16 track car

http://www.fastfrogs.co.nz
Posted 20th Nov 2013 at 21:53

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