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Author Subject: Subwoofers and amplifiers sound quality.
darkgti6

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Post #1
My system in the six at the moment consists of a Pioneer cd headunit and autochanger which has 3 x 6v pre-outs with Burr Brown Dacs which runs into a Boschmann 4 channel full range amp which runs Alpine Type S component speakers in the front doors and Alpine Type R 6x9's on the rear stealth shelf and and an Alpine MRP-M1000 mono amp which runs an Alpine Type S dual voice coil 12inch sub in a well damped ported sub box. Its running in 2ohm mode.

The full range set up im happy with for now apart from the mickey mouse Boschmann amp which I plan on changing for something a little better at some point - but its the bass i find quite un-satisfying at the moment. I very much enjoy good sound quality over ear bleeding SPL.

In a previous car I used to have a 12 inch Pioneer sub and a 300 watt Jensen amplifier which from memory used to sound rather good compared to my current setup which I find just makes a noise rather than producing a sound which is detailed, dynamic and tuneful.

Whats your thoughts on an idea for improving my current setup with regards to bass? The amplifier retails for around £200 so you would think it would be capable of producing a good sound compared to a £100 Jensen amplifier from Maplins back in the day although I have to say I really dislike the 'subsonic filter' function on the MRP-M1000 amp which you cant switch off unfortunately on that model. Or is it the relatively cheap in the overall scale of things Alpine Type S subwoofer which is causing my issues? This only retailed for around £100 from memory which is pretty cheap compared to my previous Pioneer (£130) and definetly in the budget range of subwoofers.

I wouldnt rule out selling the Alpine MRP-M1000 - I still have the box and its in mint condition so I think I could get some decent money back for it anyway.

Id appreciate any input on the topic apart from welshpugs input who condemns any form of modification from standard (poo) car audioRazz

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Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 20:07
simonjames

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Post #2
6x9s on shelf with sub underneath aint going to be a good move tbh as the sub bass and 6x9 bass will clash in an old 306 i had the 6x9s in the rear quarters

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Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 20:20
woody.

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Post #3
I'd say that the 6x9s aren't doing you any favours, with them interacting with the subwoofers airspace. Maybe unplug them and see if the bass response is any better?

Have you got any mates with other subs you could try? I've got a 10" Diamond Audio sub which I find has good quality, I'd also recommend JL and Hertz.

I also don't think the ported box will be doing the SQ any good, I've always thought they were better for louder, less clearer applications. Pop along to a local car audio shop and ask if you could try a couple of sealed boxes with different subs to give you an idea of whats about Smile
Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 20:34
darkgti6

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Post #4
simonjames wrote:
6x9s on shelf with sub underneath aint going to be a good move tbh as the sub bass and 6x9 bass will clash in an old 306 i had the 6x9s in the rear quarters


I had that setup in my previous car though without any issues. At the moment im filtering out most bass from the 6x9's on the amplifiers crossover?

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Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 20:34
dragoon

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Post #5
cba to read all comments, but try a sealed enclosure, ported enclosures have the tendency to sound boom-y and have port-noise

don't think you can fault the sub-amp too, as long as its powerful enough it should be fine.
Why do you dislike the subsonic? Subsonic filters out frequencies below a certain hz, mostly this is 20 or 25hz, keep in mind that most subs their frequency response wont go below 25hz (depends on the size too) so you wouldn't notice it anyhow.

O, and lose that damn boschman pos.

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Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 20:47
darkgti6

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Post #6
dragoon wrote:
cba to read all comments, but try a sealed enclosure, ported enclosures have the tendency to sound boom-y and have port-noise

don't think you can fault the sub-amp too, as long as its powerful enough it should be fine.
Why do you dislike the subsonic? Subsonic filters out frequencies below a certain hz, mostly this is 20 or 25hz, keep in mind that most subs their frequency response wont go below 25hz (depends on the size too) so you wouldn't notice it anyhow.

O, and lose that damn boschman pos.


I beg your pardon its not a subsonic filter its called a bass equalizer? Ive had a play with it and sort of alters the sound of the bass. I fail to understand its purpose. Surely the amplifier should just be recreating the source sent to it and not changing it in any way?

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Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 21:29
bigbadbowen

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Post #7
Ok here's the deal you need a good quality amp if you want good quality sound ? Have a look for a nice JL audio amp and sub ? Go for a 250/1 or a 500/1, mate it to a 10w3 in a proper box = job done Thumbs up
Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 21:38
kiwibrick

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Post #8
darkgti6 wrote:

I beg your pardon its not a subsonic filter its called a bass equalizer? Ive had a play with it and sort of alters the sound of the bass. I fail to understand its purpose. Surely the amplifier should just be recreating the source sent to it and not changing it in any way?


We sometimes need to tweak the sound with an equaliser because you just don't get the same perceived loudness from all frequencies when the speakers reproduce the sound, you need more power to get the same loudness from lower frequencies than you do from higher frequencies, not to mention reflections reinforcing or subtracting from the loudness while it bounces around in the car.
You can download test cd's with sweeping frequencies and separate tones as well, then you can compare db readings with a smartphone app, just for a rough idea of whats going on.

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Posted 11th Jul 2012 at 22:29
woody.

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Post #9
Sub and amp are fine mate, try different subs in a sealed enclosure. Ported for down right wobbly bass, not SQ.
Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 17:40
dragoon

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Post #10
darkgti6 wrote:

I beg your pardon its not a subsonic filter its called a bass equalizer? Ive had a play with it and sort of alters the sound of the bass. I fail to understand its purpose. Surely the amplifier should just be recreating the source sent to it and not changing it in any way?


Well you posted this:
"I have to say I really dislike the 'subsonic filter' function on the MRP-M1000 amp which you cant switch off unfortunately on that model."

You sure it aint some bass-boost switch? which allows you to increase the gain around 45hz. (changes the frequency curve)

I just checked the amp, it's definitely that.

How you decently set it up even? At how many hz is the LP-filter? Play a bit with the gain too (just don't ever turn it all the way open)

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 17:56
darkgti6

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Post #11
Ive turned the LP filter all the way up and control cut off with my headunit. Typically i'll leave it set at 80hz but sometimes swap and change depending on what material im listening to to make it suit.

The bass equalizer is a dial rather than a swithc, ill stick a picture up soon so you can see what i mean

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 19:59
darkgti6

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Post #12
Sorry for ropey picture quality,

The left dial is gain control, the centre is the bass equalizer in question and the right is the low pass filter.

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:20
dragoon

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Post #13
it should definitely be a switch mate:



hope they didn't fiddle with yours?

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:33
darkgti6

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Post #14
dragoon wrote:
it should definitely be a switch mate:



dragoon its the bass equalizer control im having issues with, i wish there was a switch to turn it off thats what im getting at. ive had a play around with it and cant seem to find a happy medium where im enjoying the bass response from it. Maybe what i should do is spend a a day having a proper play with it ive not really spent a lot of time on it to be honest.

I may well buy a sealed box and give that a try. Everyone says they are better for sq?

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:38
dragoon

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Post #15
it's 'off' when its at 0db

and a box? make one yourself, its easy, just make sure you use MDF with 15 or 18mm thickness. Use screws & wood glue.
Enclosures of the shelf are mostly ridiculously overpriced.

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:43
darkgti6

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Post #16
dragoon wrote:
it's 'off' when its at 0db

and a box? make one yourself, its easy, just make sure you use MDF with 15 or 18mm thickness. Use screws & wood glue.
Enclosures of the shelf are mostly ridiculously overpriced.


You would think that turning it down to 0db is 'off' but im not entirely sure thats the case. Ive turned it right down before and i need to turn my gain control pretty much all the way up in order to get any substantial bass volume and its no where near as loud as if i have it turned up half way for example?

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:46
dragoon

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Post #17
that doesn't seem abnormal to me... like i said, it's only use is to 'boost' the curve (when looking at the frequencies in a diagram) around 45hz.

so when it's boosted you'll have more 'bass' (bass itself is between 20-80 hz +-, this ain't very scientific, but just to give you an estimate; thats why your better off putting all speakers on 80hz HP, around that or higher even)

you might understand while looking at this curve:

(if you have -db too, well then the curve would bend downwards, but that obvious, right?)


(btw, let me remind you that i'm not a native English-speaker, so once in a while i might misunderstand things Razz )

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:54
darkgti6

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Post #18
kiwibrick wrote:
darkgti6 wrote:

I beg your pardon its not a subsonic filter its called a bass equalizer? Ive had a play with it and sort of alters the sound of the bass. I fail to understand its purpose. Surely the amplifier should just be recreating the source sent to it and not changing it in any way?


We sometimes need to tweak the sound with an equaliser because you just don't get the same perceived loudness from all frequencies when the speakers reproduce the sound, you need more power to get the same loudness from lower frequencies than you do from higher frequencies, not to mention reflections reinforcing or subtracting from the loudness while it bounces around in the car.
You can download test cd's with sweeping frequencies and separate tones as well, then you can compare db readings with a smartphone app, just for a rough idea of whats going on.


This makes sense to me and just goes to show i need to put some more time into getting correct setting for my setup.

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 21:55
darkgti6

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Post #19
dragoon wrote:
that doesn't seem abnormal to me... like i said, it's only use is to 'boost' the curve (when looking at the frequencies in a diagram) around 45hz.

so when it's boosted you'll have more 'bass' (bass itself is between 20-80 hz +-, this ain't very scientific, but just to give you an estimate; thats why your better off putting all speakers on 80hz HP, around that or higher even)

you might understand while looking at this curve:

(if you have -db too, well then the curve would bend downwards, but that obvious, right?)


(btw, let me remind you that i'm not a native English-speaker, so once in a while i might misunderstand things Razz )


excellent post dragoon this helps massively thanks. I think im understanding this now. I know you know your stuff with regard to this. Haha your english is fine mate i have to put up with worse at work and thats in this country.

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Posted 12th Jul 2012 at 22:00
manthos

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Post #20
I have a full Genesis system. Tweeters, cross overs, mids with kevlar woven cones and cotton tweeters, kevlar woven 6x9s powered by a Genesis amp which create as much bass as a 10" sub. Great bass and amazing clarity. Ths best system i've ever had. Cost me over £700 and now i've turned it into a track car it could be yours for £300

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Posted 14th Jul 2012 at 17:05
dragoon

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Post #21
manthos wrote:
kevlar woven 6x9s powered by a Genesis amp which create as much bass as a 10" sub.


bulls**t Blah , I guess you never had a decent 10" then (or 8" even)

(I've probably had or tried most possible and none-extreme setups; 6*9" just wont cut it bass-wise)

don't get me wrong, genesis is awesome SQ gear, but what you are stating isn't even technically possible...


Also, don't mix up kick/kickbass and bass, you'll probably have great kick though.

your setup is nice, but lacks a sub, end of story

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Posted 14th Jul 2012 at 20:40
manthos

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Post #22
I promise you it does, I am a musician and wanted fantastic sound quality and definition but didn't want a sub anymore as i didn't want to add weight. Dont get me wrong if you wanted extra low frequencies you could add a 15" non ported sub. As said ths car is fully stripped now and i don't use it, but it was amazing and so crisp.

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Posted 14th Jul 2012 at 21:27
dragoon

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Post #23
6*9" will rarely be able to (decently) create sound below 60hz, and 60hz+ is not exactly what I call 'bass'
(and not only me, see the bass-boost thing around 45hz)

concerning weight, you're even better off with a decent compo up front combined with a 8" sub than a compo combined with 6*9's, the stage is mostly in front of you anyhow, so you don't actually 'need' rear speakers (unless you prefer that surround effect off course, something I prefer myself)

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Posted 14th Jul 2012 at 22:18

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