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Author Subject: High boost supercharged 6 engine with petert regrinds.
paul_13

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Location: Reading

Registered: 10 Dec 2008

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Post #1
I have a high boost engine which will have 87mm wossner pistons etc...
Now has anyone had experiences with running different cams on a supercharged engine?

Will be going for some petert regrinds. Stage 2 probably but worried about blow back on the overlap.

Any ideas?

________________________________________

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 19:32
pugheaven

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Location: Fareham

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Post #2
I have asked rich this before as I have another engine with a longmans head and piper 270h cams that I was thinking of using for my high boost engine, from what I remember he said it was pointless or something along those lines
Posted 10th May 2012 at 19:38
eliotrw

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Location: Southwark

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Post #3
something to do with boost not having enough space to flow through properly or something?I cant remember either..

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 19:53
matty_rallye

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Location: Devizes

Registered: 28 Oct 2005

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Post #4
I was always under the impression that the cams wouldnt restrict a HB engine. Stan runs another 50 bhp over a HB on the standard ones i think.

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 19:54
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #5
Doesnt Garry have a cam in his 205?

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 19:55
eliotrw

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Post #6
Is that the gentry one?
If so yeah I think so.

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 20:01
simonjames

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Location: Whitland S.Wales

Registered: 23 Nov 2004

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Post #7
I had PT82s to go in mine but rich advised me that if anything i would probably have less power after fitting than if id just left standard cams in so i sold them on, but i'm sure iirc CAT cams do a pair of XU10J4RS cams that are designed for boosted engines but how good/bad they are on our charged engines i dont know

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 20:06
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

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Post #8
The accepted wisdom is, don't do it.

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 20:12
paul_13

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Location: Reading

Registered: 10 Dec 2008

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Post #9
Ok, any reason why? Surely it will help to an extent. I'd like some solid proof really, not assumptions/guesses

Has Richw tried a supercharged engine on cams?

________________________________________

205 GTI6- Rebuilt engine, lightened flywheel, lightened pulley, 307 hdi brakes, Koni struts on gravel spec springs, 22mm TB's, 24mm ARB, Roll cage, Citreon ZX rear dampers, SL434's, Xsara box, Quickrack, Pipercross enclosed induction kit. Smile

Private work, not a prob Smile
Posted 10th May 2012 at 20:18
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

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Post #10
The reason it doesnt work is that high lift, long overlap cams actually waste the boost. Rich has been through this and talks from experience. If you want better results, you need to consult your cam manufacturer and advise them that you are carrying out a forced induction build and let them spec the cams accordingly.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 10th May 2012 at 20:26
paul_13

Senior User

Location: Reading

Registered: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 693

Status: Offline

Post #11
Spot on Smile

________________________________________

205 GTI6- Rebuilt engine, lightened flywheel, lightened pulley, 307 hdi brakes, Koni struts on gravel spec springs, 22mm TB's, 24mm ARB, Roll cage, Citreon ZX rear dampers, SL434's, Xsara box, Quickrack, Pipercross enclosed induction kit. Smile

Private work, not a prob Smile
Posted 10th May 2012 at 20:41
gman

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Location: Didcot

Registered: 25 Oct 2007

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Post #12
What the hell are you up to Paul. A high boost in your 205!! Beast!

I hope its not going to take up all your time - Miles is sending up the spare parts for the flywheel job, so hope you're still free for that. Need to get my billies on too!

________________________________________

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Posted 10th May 2012 at 22:44
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,785

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Post #13
matty_rallye wrote:
Stan runs another 50 bhp over a HB on the standard ones i think.


This is correct. Yes

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Posted 11th May 2012 at 01:17
rich_w

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Location: Havant, Hampshire

Registered: 29 Jul 2004

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Post #14
I have experimented with cams on the high-boost S/C setup.

It really depends what your aspirations are in terms of power, and where you want it.

They can give you a similar percentage gain as they would on a N/A engine. The issue is, the inherant nature of a centrifugal supercharger (like Rotrex) is to move the peak power / torque up the power band when compared to the same engine in N/A form.

This is becuase the impellor speed in the compressor increases with crankshaft speed - so boost increases as RPM does, so peak power is normally very close the the red-line.

Adding some higher lift and / or longer duration cams will move the powerband up the rev range further, which isn't always desirable.

I used a Cat Cams N/A grind on mine, and it seemed to respond very well to more overlap, due to the cylinder purging.

Smile

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Posted 11th May 2012 at 20:06
swiftyboi006

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Location: Maidenhead

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Post #15
Say no more

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Posted 11th May 2012 at 20:36
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

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Post #16
Really, as Rich says it's not necessary...No

If I can get 454bhp and 320ft/lbs out of standard cams, why on Earth do you need to swap them for something else?

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 12th May 2012 at 01:35
swiftyboi006

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Location: Maidenhead

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Post #17
Stan says that he has a 6 with 454bhp but it appears to be non existant Dunno






Laugh my ass off

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Posted 12th May 2012 at 10:33
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,785

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Post #18
swiftyboi006 wrote:
Stan says that he has a 6 with 454bhp but it appears to be non existant Dunno






Laugh my ass off


Laugh my ass off

It does exist I promise...Yes

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 12th May 2012 at 11:10
pete_rallye

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Post #19
Would you not benefit by fitting cams by bringing in the same amount of power lower down the rev range? As an eg. Rich's car is running~ 440bhp@ ~8300rpm rpm with standard cams. Whilst I owned the car, although it was ace, I thought it was too many revs for road use. I was thinking you could fit a different pulley to bring max boost in earlier, and a different set of cams to keep your 440bhp but bring it in at somewhere nearer 7500rpm. I don't think it needed any more power (well, maybe a bit more Razz), but the same power at less frantic revs would improve longevity and reduce the risk of your gearbox exploding.

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Posted 12th May 2012 at 12:24
swiftyboi006

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Post #20
But like rich stated i dont think you can do this with a supercharger as it runs off the crank?

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Posted 12th May 2012 at 13:00
dcc

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Location: Wales

Registered: 24 Feb 2009

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Post #21
SwiftyBOIIIIIIIII I think you missed the whole point of pete_rallye's post...

He suggests a smaller (I assume?) pulley on the charger. Its much like the gearing on a bicycle.

for arguments sake lets say currently the engine might only have to spin 1 turn but charger spins 2 times. however, if the gearing is changed, the engine now spins 1 turn and the charger spins 3 turns. you now have (for arguments sake) 50% more air being fed through the engine. This in turn gives the engine the ability to get more air in the chamber at lower revs.

My old g40 was running silly power from a very small engine (1.3) due to the charger putting out somewhere near 30 psi from memory (I think it was 2 bar).

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Posted 13th May 2012 at 14:23
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

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Post #22
pete_rallye wrote:
Would you not benefit by fitting cams by bringing in the same amount of power lower down the rev range? As an eg. Rich's car is running~ 440bhp@ ~8300rpm rpm with standard cams. Whilst I owned the car, although it was ace, I thought it was too many revs for road use. I was thinking you could fit a different pulley to bring max boost in earlier, and a different set of cams to keep your 440bhp but bring it in at somewhere nearer 7500rpm. I don't think it needed any more power (well, maybe a bit more Razz), but the same power at less frantic revs would improve longevity and reduce the risk of your gearbox exploding.


You could do this, but you would have to lower the rev limit to avoid damaging the charger...Yes

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 13th May 2012 at 15:22
pete_rallye

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Location: Yorkshire

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Post #23
Yeah, that's what I mean. With the Rotrex charger you have to size the pulley to match your desired max rpm, so that the chargers maximum rpm limit matches your engines max rpm limit. With Rich's car this was well over 8k rpm, but personally I would prefer max power to come in around 7-7500rpm for road use. With the drop in revs will come a drop in power, despite the same amount of boost, so to help get the power back again, you could use a mild cam, giving slightly higher lift, but more importantly a bit more duration, giving the cylinders a little more time to fill. If you spec your cams carefully you should not lose any low down torque, and with the boost coming in a bit earlier, it should pull nicely from a bit lower down the revs also.

________________________________________

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Posted 13th May 2012 at 20:01
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #24
Hmm more torque possibly?

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Posted 13th May 2012 at 20:37
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,785

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Post #25
welshpug! wrote:
Hmm more torque possibly?


It's got me wondering that too. Yes

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 13th May 2012 at 22:44

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