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Author Subject: Geometry
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #1
Right knowledgable folks.. (that excludes about 75% of you lot Whistle)

I had our Rallye laser tracked and adjusted this morning.

We knew it'd be way out since the KW's went on plus the eccentric top mounts.

Well the tow in was way too much so that was adjusted back out and castor was increased to the max we could get while maintaining camber.

The problem was the rear.. we've changed the whole rear beam and trailing arms for refurbished ones. Fitted 25mm torsion bars and an uprated hybrid arb. At the same time some solid rear mounts from Jim.

We have about 1 degree camber on the nearside but practically none on the offside Huh?

Plus and more worryingly we have neutral tow on the nearside but the offside is towing in quite a bit more than standard.

Here are our print outs..

PRE ADJUSTMENT


POST ADJUSTMENT


Obviously no adjustments available on the rear but there is a discrepancy between the pre and post results for the nearside rear toe.

I'm pretty happy about the front but welcome opinions on the tow.

We still have the old beam and trailing arms but I can't believe we have bought an odd pair Citroen/Peugeot Erm?

What do you guys think we should try with the rear?

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:06
smighall

Smeg-all

Location: b*tching and Whinging

Registered: 03 Mar 2005

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Post #2
I reckon you've got different trailing arms as I said to you. Minimal toe and negative camber would point to that in my mind.

________________________________________

Meh

Seat Leon Cupra FR / 306 GTI6 / Breaking 205 GTI6 / Caterham 7 / Mercedes Sprinter 311CDI LWB

Sold: Fisher Fury - Laguna DCI Estate - P1 306 XSI - E30 BMW 325i Baur Convertible - Daihatsu Fourtack - Suzuki GSXR600 - 205 Rallye
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 22:11
khj100 Forum Admin

Location: York

Registered: 30 Mar 2003

Posts: 11,174

Status: Offline

Post #3
Spoke to Dave earlier, Jim. I'll try and get the old trailing arms off tomorrow night and if necessary get them couriered down.

Unless you fancy joining us at Al's this weekend for a resumption of weekend festivities?

________________________________________

Trackday, trackday, trackday Hyper
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 22:13
fletch

Track Head

Location: The nearest Shell garage

Registered: 12 Jun 2004

Posts: 12,273

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Post #4
Slightly bent trailing arm/stub axle?

Could the toe on the back not be solved by unbolting and carefully aligning the rear mounts, on the rig?
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 22:17
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

Status: Offline

Post #5
smighall wrote:
I reckon you've got different trailing arms as I said to you. Minimal toe and negative camber would point to that in my mind.


This would actually be easy to resolve as our hybrid arb will still fit with those trailing arms!

Cheers Sean

khj100 wrote:
Spoke to Dave earlier, Jim. I'll try and get the old trailing arms off tomorrow night and if necessary get them couriered down.

Unless you fancy joining us at Al's this weekend for a resumption of weekend festivities?


Kev they're f*cking heavy! I may join you this weekend to collect and enjoy F1 finale with you northerers.

I wonder if I could fly up and put them in my hand luggage? Whistle

fletch wrote:
Slightly bent trailing arm/stub axle?

Could the toe on the back not be solved by unbolting and carefully aligning the rear mounts, on the rig?


I thought that about the whole beam Matt.. but what about the camber on one side but not the other? I don't think there's any room in the bolt holes for adjustment anyway.

Changing them would eliminate the arms and point to the beam tube or something else though I guess. Cheers Thumbs up

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 22:29
khj100 Forum Admin

Location: York

Registered: 30 Mar 2003

Posts: 11,174

Status: Offline

Post #6
There was a small amount of room in the bolt holes Jim Yes

But that said, the mounts are so rigid where they are bolted on the beam you'd effectively be trying to bend the whole thing. The way we put it on was "at rest" so it seems silly to do anything else.

Assuming that wasn't a joke, let me know if you're flying up - can pick you up from LBA Friday evening.

________________________________________

Trackday, trackday, trackday Hyper
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 22:38
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #7
there's probably enough slack in all the mounting bolts for the front brackets and manufacturing tolerances to account for the different readings.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 22:43
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #8
khj100 wrote:
There was a small amount of room in the bolt holes Jim Yes

But that said, the mounts are so rigid where they are bolted on the beam you'd effectively be trying to bend the whole thing. The way we put it on was "at rest" so it seems silly to do anything else.

Assuming that wasn't a joke, let me know if you're flying up - can pick you up from LBA Friday evening.


It's

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:04
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #9
what about it?

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:12
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

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Post #10
Ah you mean the different readings for the pre and post readings of the nearside toe.

Not the fact that one side is towing in and the other is tracking straight ahead?

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:22
iplay

Seasoned Pro

Location: Number Wang

Registered: 18 May 2006

Posts: 3,250

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Post #11
I fall into the 75% ... disclaimer Whistle

I had mine done today so this is quite useful to see a comparison.

Camber issue: Wheel bearing? Warped wheel? Uneven tyre tread?

Rear toe: I would say the position of your rear beam is slightly off. ie the left side of the beam needs to be pushed forward slightly - 1or2mm (undo bolts in boot reposition). maybe the company who did the geometry settings could jack the rear up and adjust the position of the rear beam.

edit: It looks like your front pre-adjusted toe settings were trying to imitate a snow plough a bit out Wink

double edit: my settings after rear beam adjustment Big grin

Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:17
phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

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Post #12
^^What Neil said, the rear toe you should be able to tweak with the slack in the bolts on the body mountings, but the wheel with 0 degrees of camber is a concern, are the stub shafts straight?

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Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:35
puglover Banned!

Location: Far out there

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Post #13
15mm TB Blink
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:40
phillipm

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Post #14
I think he meant 25mm? LOL

We've just put a pair of 28mm TB's in the buggy Ninja

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:41
marra

Regular

Location: nth lincs

Registered: 13 Jun 2003

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Post #15
i have never seen the rear of a 306 ever be in spec and i have been doing four wheelers for many years!!
Posted 26th Oct 2009 at 23:47
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #16
puglover wrote:
15mm TB Blink


That was a test Whistle

Mean't 25mm Doh

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:07
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #17
iplay wrote:
I fall into the 75% ... disclaimer Whistle

I had mine done today so this is quite useful to see a comparison.

Camber issue: Wheel bearing? Warped wheel? Uneven tyre tread?

Rear toe: I would say the position of your rear beam is slightly off. ie the left side of the beam needs to be pushed forward slightly - 1or2mm (undo bolts in boot reposition). maybe the company who did the geometry settings could jack the rear up and adjust the position of the rear beam.


It really does seem that simple doesn't it! I don't know how much you can move if forwards on one side without affecting the other though.

Hasn't anyone else had to "align the beam" when changing it over?

iplay wrote:

edit: It looks like your front pre-adjusted toe settings were trying to imitate a snow plough a bit out Wink


Laugh my ass off Flip

Purely guesswork on Dave's part Whistle

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:13
phillipm

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Post #18
I 'aligned' mine by strapping the rear wheels to a fence and creeping forwards to pull it straight, quick check via the string method and tightened the bolts, sorted LOL


Where's that pikey smiley when you need it? LOL

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:15
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #19
phillipm wrote:
^^What Neil said, the rear toe you should be able to tweak with the slack in the bolts on the body mountings, but the wheel with 0 degrees of camber is a concern, are the stub shafts straight?


You think we can get them even? If there is any room for adjustment then I'm suprised no one else has had to do this Unsure

Re the camber - It has to be either bent or the inner beam tube damaged? It all looked fine though. Perhaps changing the stub axels back over will eliminate one or the other.

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:17
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #20
phillipm wrote:
I 'aligned' mine by strapping the rear wheels to a fence and creeping forwards to pull it straight, quick check via the string method and tightened the bolts, sorted LOL


Where's that pikey smiley when you need it? LOL


So there is a need to align the beam evenly?? Even if the car is straight?

LOL @ the method though

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:19
iplay

Seasoned Pro

Location: Number Wang

Registered: 18 May 2006

Posts: 3,250

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Post #21
jimmy_boy wrote:
You think we can get them even? If there is any room for adjustment then I'm suprised no one else has had to do this Unsure

Re the camber - It has to be either bent or the inner beam tube damaged? It all looked fine though. Perhaps changing the stub axels back over will eliminate one or the other.


It is easy to adjust ... undo 6 beam retaining nuts in boot ... i am sure someone here could do the calculations to tell you exactly how many mm to move left side forward. better to ask geometry company to jack up car on sills and move beam with laser kit attached. your rear arms will be 20/20 when moved ...
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:21
iplay

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Post #22
phillipm wrote:
I 'aligned' mine by strapping the rear wheels to a fence and creeping forwards to pull it straight, quick check via the string method and tightened the bolts, sorted LOL


Where's that pikey smiley when you need it? LOL


so that is your advanced method eh ... i used your other method of loosening the bolts a bit and driving down a private runway with a friend in the boot ... apply brakes and tighten Whistle
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:29
jimmy_boy Forum Admin

Location: Christchurch

Registered: 09 Jun 2003

Posts: 14,751

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Post #23
Cheers for all the responses so far guys.

I'll be changing the stub axels back over to see if that cures the camber. If it doesn't alter the toe correctly we'll f*ck about with the whole beam.

________________________________________

GTI-6 & Rallye

Rallye gets sideways in the wet at Snetterton Ninja
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 00:33
c_j_m

Seasoned Pro

Location: Andover

Registered: 23 Sep 2007

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Post #24
Just got a PM from Jim as It me he bought the beam off.
Just reading whats put I'm going with a bent arm/stub axle as the car the beam was from was a write off.
as far as I know both arms are GTI items.

From lowering my mates car to the same hight with a good beam (new bearings and pins at some point) the camber on the passengers side seams about right.
Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 01:20
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,775

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Post #25
the guys have said precisely what I was going to elaborate on with the mounting bolts, there's 8 bolts that you could loosen and move the beam around on very slightly, probably enough to make the differences up.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 27th Oct 2009 at 01:22

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